"I don't know," he says, at first. It's said quite simply, because it is true. But it is also not the entire truth, "I am still trying to figure that out myself, but your departure has been swift enough that there was not time to unravel it all. I do not like this." The last is an admission, something he would not normally say under any circumstances. But everything has been upended, now. Still, he falls back first on old ways (don't they all?),
"If you were thinking of taking some kind of vengeance, or even just teaching him a lesson, I would be an excellent hostage."
Kai resists, barely, from rolling his eyes. "I am not taking you hostage," he says flatly, because that sounds like a recipe for disaster in more ways than one. He's sure Ramad could get out of many a binding, so really they'd just be taking him with them without even the pretense of him being a helping hand like before. Not to mention there is no real proof of what Bashat did, given that 'what he did' was mostly 'allow an already existent plot to happen'. Sure, being a demon and the Witch King would grant him some leeway in places, either an assumption of him being all knowing or of being unstable, but he really does not intend to keep playing in that field.
He also just... is very cool on the idea of vengeance. He used to live for it, during the war. There was nothing else to live for, at the start of it, other than making Hierarchs pay for his torment and the deaths of all his people. But such a flame is short lived, and he knows better now what kind of emotions better keep the fire alight.
Ramad shrugs slightly to that, as though it makes very little difference to him whether he's a hostage or not, which is both true and also likely not helping his case any.
"Then I suppose I come to you empty handed," he's not happy about that and it shows, but he's worked with worse, "May I sit?"
There is a part of Kai that knows that the smart thing to do is to tell him know, and chase him off, and threaten something or other should he ever darken his door again. Fool me once, and all that. But that blasted little spark of hope refuses to die, and so he just sighs.
Ramad goes to sit by the fire, curling his legs under himself comfortably. He doesn't speak for a long moment, still trying to figure out what to say, what he even wants to say. After a moment he runs his hand back over his hair in a slight, but still rare, show of frustration. He doesn't know the words for what he's feeling and it makes him want to scream. He's used to talking around a subject, never quite asking the real question or saying the real words, but he's always known what those words were. But now, he circles because he doesn't and it's a wholly different feeling.
"I don't want to return to Bashat," he says, finally, "I don't fear his displeasure," he adds, because that's important for some reason, "but I do not wish for his praise. Not for this."
Kai's watching him still and his suspicion is still there, but there is a definite edge of confusion to it now. Again, he would not put it past Ramad to lie or to act conflicted, but he can't help but read this as true. It's no where near enough to absolve or trust him, but it does make him a little more willing to listen.
"Why not?" he asks, managing to keep his voice more or less disinterested, "You seem to have done a fine job in your mission, all things considered." You know, that job of keeping him out of the way. That thing you did. To him.
"I did," he says, and again, it's simply said because it is the truth. So is what follows, "It all came together better than I could have fully planned for, and yet I don't think there was anything to complain about in my actions, either, given what happened. I am sure I would not be able to be openly recognized, but I doubt I would want for anything from now on."
It is the next bit where it becomes murkier, harder to fully follow his own thoughts,
"But I would still be expected to serve, as I have done. I... don't want to," Ramad struggles harder with what he is trying to say, "I am not in Bashat's emotional confidence and have never wanted to be. I cannot be sure. But I have not seen him show even the barest flicker of remorse about his actions. I believed it the strength of a leader, the ability to sacrifice for the greater good," he shakes his head, "Meeting you, traveling with you, I think it a betrayal of the highest order. I do not wish to work for such a man."
It is not exactly what he wants to say, but it's close enough to get him a step closer to it.
Whatever Kai expected, it wasn't that, and it shows. Ziede taps him a gentle reminder, this could be another lie, but he sort of doubts even she believes that. He'd seen how Ramad had struggled when they'd finally laid the truth out and Kai had taken no satisfaction in how it affected the other man, but he also hadn't thought anything would happen other than Ramad turning back in to report, with perhaps at most a glossed over version of certain events. This is... a much bigger step than that, and Kai doesn't think for a moment that Ramad hasn't thought about what that would mean.
"What would you do?" he asks, and it's much less about 'what job would you have instead' and more about the bigger picture. Presumably he has family or people he cares about in Benais-Arak, a home to return to, things he cherishes. Kai doesn't know as much as he perhaps should about the life of such an agent, but he does imagine that 'retiring peacefully' is not an opportunity that is afforded to them. If he truly wants to remove himself from Bashat's service, it would involve more than just a graceful notice of leave.
"If I knew that, I would not be here," he says again, a new set of meaning to the words, "It is not done. I have never seen it done, only seen the quiet execution of traitors." There's a world there that he's not saying. This much, he could say, and chooses not to speak it aloud. He has believed those people were traitors. He has believed Bashat was a great man.
He now doesn't know what to believe.
"A man who would see only advantage in sacrificing those he holds most dear would spare not even a thought for a servant, even one they were proud of."
But that's not the whole of the truth, either, and it would not answer the questions that are really being asked here, even if it were. He still doesn't fully understand the shape of his own mind, the reason he's here, but he's getting closer to it, the longer they talk,
"I will not pretend I would have done anything other than made my report and attempted to forget all about you, if I had been given an opportunity to do so much earlier," he says, after another moment, "To do so would be an insult to both of our intelligences. I would have told myself it was necessary. I would have lied to myself and I would have forgotten. But that is not what happened."
Kai is not sure he counts in who Bashat would have considered 'most dear;' the betrayal to him speaks against that. The picture Ramad paints, of someone who cared deeply but did it anyway, does somehow seem worse.
And damn Ramad, but something in the phrasing of 'attempt to forget all about you' hits Kai where he still hurts, whether or not that was intentional. That is not language you use for someone you don't care about at all, and again, this isn't really new information but it keeps that stupid, stupid flicker of hope in him from dying and he hates it. He takes in a breath, reminding himself that he might be doing what Ramad is so good at, reading into it a certain way, but damn him if he can't think of how else it might be honestly meant.
"If you are looking for help... I don't know I'm the best person for that." It's honest, even though there are different things it could mean. If Ramad were to defect, now, after the mission he just had, Kai and his ilk would be the first place to look. It would make the nature of his change of heart obvious and all the easiest to strike at all of them. It could also mean that Kai simply doesn't have the heart to. That he can't help someone who hurt him the way Ramad had. Even Kai isn't entirely sure which option he means.
"I am not looking for--" he cuts himself off, rephrases, "I do not know what I am looking for. I..." he shakes his head, more at himself than anything else, takes a breath, tries again without fully knowing what he's trying for. He hates this.
"That you would stand up for your friends is admirable and understandable," it seems like a complete subject change, but he will hold up a hand if Kai tries to interrupt. He's not sure where he's going with this, but he knows he's going somewhere. "I would expect nothing less. You have known them longer than most people have been alive, longer than I can truly comprehend. But you owe Sanja less than nothing. You owe Tenes nothing. You owed me only death. You risked yourself for all of us, even after you must have known." There's another long silence. He doesn't think he has anything to follow that up with, but he finds he's wrong,
"I know the kind of man I thought I was serving. I know the kind of man I wish to serve." It is the truth. It is a truth he doesn't realize the implications of until he says it, and he can do nothing in the moment but wear the shock of the realization bold on his face, another rarity.
If Ramad thinks his own words shock himself, then he can probably understand how shocking they must be to Kai.
There is a stunned silence that falls between the both of them, Kai simply staring at him across the fire. It feels like his brain has just blanked out for a moment, overcome with the magnitude and sheer improbability of what he's just heard.
"I-- don't-- people don't serve me," he manages to get out, even though it's more or less irrelevant, even though it's something Ramad could brush off as that isn't what he meant, he simply cannot think of anything else to say even though that is, as things go, the smallest of problems. The Witch King is a title more than anything, and anyone who has met Kai can tell he's kind of person to do things rather than delegate in any capacity. But that's not the point. He's not even sure what the point is.
All his brain can get around to is Bashasa. Bashasa was the kind of man that people wanted to follow, the kind that people would throw themselves in front of flames for. Kai knew that better than most- he was one of them. There was a time where he would have done anything that man wanted of him and he could always tell, even within a day of knowing him, that he was just the kind of man you could believe in. Kai had never been that. He'd always been the outcast, included for his proximity to Bashasa and the respect the other man had for him, never his own merit. Never because anyone other than Bashasa believed in him. He can't be that. He couldn't possibly be.
Ramad doesn't know the extent of what he's skimmed the surface of here for Kai and while he might speculate on it later, in the moment he's not paying much attention to that because he's paying more attention to the realization of what he came here for, what he wanted and why he was having this conversation. The smile he gives to Kai is wry, a little helpless, and he holds his hands out, palms up, in something between a shrug and a that may be, but here I am gesture.
"I would not expect you to trust me ever again," he says, plainly, because now that he understands why he is here and what he wants, the words come easier, "But where you are going, I would follow, if you will have me."
There is something so unusually open about Ramad's gesture that for a split second, Kai completely believes him.
He shuts his eyes as soon as he realizes it, a grimace on his face as he forces it back down, swallowing what feels like a huge lump in his throat. He can't. He can't trust Ramad, or believe him, regardless of what he says. Ramad telling the truth looks the same as Ramad lying. He has to remember that. He has to.
He takes in a deep breath, opening his eyes again to stare down the man in front of him. "Give me one reason I should let you." Allowing him to follow them is, in a way, still giving him some level of trust. Knowing their movements, and with Ramad's skill set, knowing some level of their plans. Kai and Ziede and Tahren can all communicate without words, but Ramad is smart enough to pick up Witch speak for communicating with Tenes and Sanja, assuming he hasn't already. It is opening them up to a risk.
Ramad's expression melts to something a bit... softer, somehow? It's more guarded than it has been the past few moments, if only because those moments have been entirely raw, but there's a good humor there that Kai's seen glimpses of before, hints of a face that used to smile more openly trying to come back to life. He knows that this is crazy, that he's probably crazy, that Kai would be crazy for letting him come with them,
"I suppose I should say that you need me because you're all terrible liars, whether you outplayed me or not," it's a joke, but he's also deadly serious as he rises slowly to his feet to come around to Kai's side of the fire. He moves slowly, hands slightly out at his sides, as non-threatening as he knows how to make himself, until he can, also very slowly and carefully, sit next to Kai, instead.
There are other ways to make this point, less dangerous ones even, but sometimes actions speak louder than words,
"But I know that's not enough," he contemplates what he's about to do before he does it, not because he's afraid, but because he wants to make sure he's serious. And then he holds his hand out to Kai, palm up, close enough to make it child's play to grab it. "I'm not asking you to trust me," he repeats, "Keep me where you can see me, I will understand. But I trust you."
"You don't need to lie when you can just kill everyone instead," Kai responds dryly, but it's a toothless threat and they both know it. Ramad is living proof of it. But it's certainly the sort of thing people would expect a demon to say; perhaps it's the sort of thing Ramad would have believed about him before meeting him. At this distance, though, Ramad can probably see that the sentiment behind it is just of someone who's tired.
Kai watches him both as he approaches and as he sits, trying to read anything off of him to give him a reason to refuse. He doesn't see it, and he's not sure which would be worse, for Ramad to be lying to him again or for him to not.
Ziede speaks up through the connection, enough to say it's his choice. Kai wishes it wasn't.
He sighs, reaching up to scrub at his face. His stupid, weak heart. "Fine," he manages, hoping he sounds stern, "But the second you turn on us..."
"You wouldn't need to kill everyone if you lied more instead," he points out, but it's as toothless as Kai's comment, more a joke than anything else. He nods at the terms, vague as they are, and withdraws his hand to a slightly safer distance,
"If nothing else, trust my intelligence enough for me to know that if I betrayed you again, you would be the least of my worries," he glances towards where he suspects the rest of the party (and most importantly Ziede) are, a slight, wry curve to his lips.
Kai snorts- vengeance for Kai might be slightly less horrible than vengeance for Tahren would be, but that's not a sure thing and even then it would be very slight. "Good," he says with a nod. So it seems... that is that.
The rest of them don't come back immediately, and when they do Ramad gets about the welcome he'd expect- as in, Zeide and Tahren both stare him down as if daring him to even think about anything, Tenes giving the others a slightly confused look but then nodding politely, with Sanja being the only one who seems genuinely happy to see him. Dahin more or less acts like he's not there.
Kai doesn't speak much for the rest of the evening, the group having gone out to get some supplies and settling around the fire. Sanja picks up most of the conversation, asking Ramad where he was and then proceeding to grill him on anything else that comes to mind- she's smart enough to know that there's something uncomfortable about his reappearance. There's a little bit of Witchspeak between Tenes and Ziede, probably explaining why the hell Ramad hasn't been immediately chased out, and if Sanja runs out of conversation Dahin will take over with some incredibly niche history that Ramad would still probably find interesting. But unless Ramad tries to draw him in again, Kai won't participate at all.
It's... a better reception than he was hoping for, all told. He answers most of Sanja's questions as best he can and if he's cagey about a few of them, well, some of them are maybe a little too pointed and searching and he doesn't reprimand her for them either.
It's all far more than he could have asked for, but he still feels a tiny spot of hurt that Kai seems to not want to participate even so. He knows that's... incredibly foolish of him to feel, but he feels it anyway, examines it that night when they've settled down to rest, turning it over in his head. In the end, though, he's not entirely sure what sits more ill with him-- Kai's lack of participation with him, or the lack of participation with everyone else. Was he like that before? Ramad is ashamed to realize he has no idea.
He does behave himself, though, whatever the others might feel about him. He won't go out of his way to "prove" himself in the coming days, he knows that's a foolish concept. But he does try to make himself useful all the same.
(And if Kai avoiding him and the others being uncomfortable about him means he ends up "babysitting" more often than not, well, he does have a soft spot where Sanja is concerned, it seems, which he feels no need to attempt to explain to anybody. That he might be the one actually being "babysat" here only makes him grin a bit more.)
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2025-06-17 01:48 pm (UTC)"If you were thinking of taking some kind of vengeance, or even just teaching him a lesson, I would be an excellent hostage."
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Date: 2025-06-17 01:57 pm (UTC)He also just... is very cool on the idea of vengeance. He used to live for it, during the war. There was nothing else to live for, at the start of it, other than making Hierarchs pay for his torment and the deaths of all his people. But such a flame is short lived, and he knows better now what kind of emotions better keep the fire alight.
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:04 pm (UTC)"Then I suppose I come to you empty handed," he's not happy about that and it shows, but he's worked with worse, "May I sit?"
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:08 pm (UTC)"Fine."
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:19 pm (UTC)"I don't want to return to Bashat," he says, finally, "I don't fear his displeasure," he adds, because that's important for some reason, "but I do not wish for his praise. Not for this."
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:27 pm (UTC)"Why not?" he asks, managing to keep his voice more or less disinterested, "You seem to have done a fine job in your mission, all things considered." You know, that job of keeping him out of the way. That thing you did. To him.
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:42 pm (UTC)It is the next bit where it becomes murkier, harder to fully follow his own thoughts,
"But I would still be expected to serve, as I have done. I... don't want to," Ramad struggles harder with what he is trying to say, "I am not in Bashat's emotional confidence and have never wanted to be. I cannot be sure. But I have not seen him show even the barest flicker of remorse about his actions. I believed it the strength of a leader, the ability to sacrifice for the greater good," he shakes his head, "Meeting you, traveling with you, I think it a betrayal of the highest order. I do not wish to work for such a man."
It is not exactly what he wants to say, but it's close enough to get him a step closer to it.
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Date: 2025-06-17 02:57 pm (UTC)"What would you do?" he asks, and it's much less about 'what job would you have instead' and more about the bigger picture. Presumably he has family or people he cares about in Benais-Arak, a home to return to, things he cherishes. Kai doesn't know as much as he perhaps should about the life of such an agent, but he does imagine that 'retiring peacefully' is not an opportunity that is afforded to them. If he truly wants to remove himself from Bashat's service, it would involve more than just a graceful notice of leave.
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Date: 2025-06-17 03:29 pm (UTC)He now doesn't know what to believe.
"A man who would see only advantage in sacrificing those he holds most dear would spare not even a thought for a servant, even one they were proud of."
But that's not the whole of the truth, either, and it would not answer the questions that are really being asked here, even if it were. He still doesn't fully understand the shape of his own mind, the reason he's here, but he's getting closer to it, the longer they talk,
"I will not pretend I would have done anything other than made my report and attempted to forget all about you, if I had been given an opportunity to do so much earlier," he says, after another moment, "To do so would be an insult to both of our intelligences. I would have told myself it was necessary. I would have lied to myself and I would have forgotten. But that is not what happened."
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Date: 2025-06-17 03:50 pm (UTC)And damn Ramad, but something in the phrasing of 'attempt to forget all about you' hits Kai where he still hurts, whether or not that was intentional. That is not language you use for someone you don't care about at all, and again, this isn't really new information but it keeps that stupid, stupid flicker of hope in him from dying and he hates it. He takes in a breath, reminding himself that he might be doing what Ramad is so good at, reading into it a certain way, but damn him if he can't think of how else it might be honestly meant.
"If you are looking for help... I don't know I'm the best person for that." It's honest, even though there are different things it could mean. If Ramad were to defect, now, after the mission he just had, Kai and his ilk would be the first place to look. It would make the nature of his change of heart obvious and all the easiest to strike at all of them. It could also mean that Kai simply doesn't have the heart to. That he can't help someone who hurt him the way Ramad had. Even Kai isn't entirely sure which option he means.
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Date: 2025-06-17 03:59 pm (UTC)"That you would stand up for your friends is admirable and understandable," it seems like a complete subject change, but he will hold up a hand if Kai tries to interrupt. He's not sure where he's going with this, but he knows he's going somewhere. "I would expect nothing less. You have known them longer than most people have been alive, longer than I can truly comprehend. But you owe Sanja less than nothing. You owe Tenes nothing. You owed me only death. You risked yourself for all of us, even after you must have known." There's another long silence. He doesn't think he has anything to follow that up with, but he finds he's wrong,
"I know the kind of man I thought I was serving. I know the kind of man I wish to serve." It is the truth. It is a truth he doesn't realize the implications of until he says it, and he can do nothing in the moment but wear the shock of the realization bold on his face, another rarity.
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Date: 2025-06-17 04:15 pm (UTC)There is a stunned silence that falls between the both of them, Kai simply staring at him across the fire. It feels like his brain has just blanked out for a moment, overcome with the magnitude and sheer improbability of what he's just heard.
"I-- don't-- people don't serve me," he manages to get out, even though it's more or less irrelevant, even though it's something Ramad could brush off as that isn't what he meant, he simply cannot think of anything else to say even though that is, as things go, the smallest of problems. The Witch King is a title more than anything, and anyone who has met Kai can tell he's kind of person to do things rather than delegate in any capacity. But that's not the point. He's not even sure what the point is.
All his brain can get around to is Bashasa. Bashasa was the kind of man that people wanted to follow, the kind that people would throw themselves in front of flames for. Kai knew that better than most- he was one of them. There was a time where he would have done anything that man wanted of him and he could always tell, even within a day of knowing him, that he was just the kind of man you could believe in. Kai had never been that. He'd always been the outcast, included for his proximity to Bashasa and the respect the other man had for him, never his own merit. Never because anyone other than Bashasa believed in him. He can't be that. He couldn't possibly be.
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Date: 2025-06-17 07:16 pm (UTC)"I would not expect you to trust me ever again," he says, plainly, because now that he understands why he is here and what he wants, the words come easier, "But where you are going, I would follow, if you will have me."
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Date: 2025-06-17 07:34 pm (UTC)He shuts his eyes as soon as he realizes it, a grimace on his face as he forces it back down, swallowing what feels like a huge lump in his throat. He can't. He can't trust Ramad, or believe him, regardless of what he says. Ramad telling the truth looks the same as Ramad lying. He has to remember that. He has to.
He takes in a deep breath, opening his eyes again to stare down the man in front of him. "Give me one reason I should let you." Allowing him to follow them is, in a way, still giving him some level of trust. Knowing their movements, and with Ramad's skill set, knowing some level of their plans. Kai and Ziede and Tahren can all communicate without words, but Ramad is smart enough to pick up Witch speak for communicating with Tenes and Sanja, assuming he hasn't already. It is opening them up to a risk.
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Date: 2025-06-17 07:49 pm (UTC)"I suppose I should say that you need me because you're all terrible liars, whether you outplayed me or not," it's a joke, but he's also deadly serious as he rises slowly to his feet to come around to Kai's side of the fire. He moves slowly, hands slightly out at his sides, as non-threatening as he knows how to make himself, until he can, also very slowly and carefully, sit next to Kai, instead.
There are other ways to make this point, less dangerous ones even, but sometimes actions speak louder than words,
"But I know that's not enough," he contemplates what he's about to do before he does it, not because he's afraid, but because he wants to make sure he's serious. And then he holds his hand out to Kai, palm up, close enough to make it child's play to grab it. "I'm not asking you to trust me," he repeats, "Keep me where you can see me, I will understand. But I trust you."
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Date: 2025-06-17 08:02 pm (UTC)Kai watches him both as he approaches and as he sits, trying to read anything off of him to give him a reason to refuse. He doesn't see it, and he's not sure which would be worse, for Ramad to be lying to him again or for him to not.
Ziede speaks up through the connection, enough to say it's his choice. Kai wishes it wasn't.
He sighs, reaching up to scrub at his face. His stupid, weak heart. "Fine," he manages, hoping he sounds stern, "But the second you turn on us..."
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Date: 2025-06-17 08:11 pm (UTC)"If nothing else, trust my intelligence enough for me to know that if I betrayed you again, you would be the least of my worries," he glances towards where he suspects the rest of the party (and most importantly Ziede) are, a slight, wry curve to his lips.
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Date: 2025-06-17 08:19 pm (UTC)The rest of them don't come back immediately, and when they do Ramad gets about the welcome he'd expect- as in, Zeide and Tahren both stare him down as if daring him to even think about anything, Tenes giving the others a slightly confused look but then nodding politely, with Sanja being the only one who seems genuinely happy to see him. Dahin more or less acts like he's not there.
Kai doesn't speak much for the rest of the evening, the group having gone out to get some supplies and settling around the fire. Sanja picks up most of the conversation, asking Ramad where he was and then proceeding to grill him on anything else that comes to mind- she's smart enough to know that there's something uncomfortable about his reappearance. There's a little bit of Witchspeak between Tenes and Ziede, probably explaining why the hell Ramad hasn't been immediately chased out, and if Sanja runs out of conversation Dahin will take over with some incredibly niche history that Ramad would still probably find interesting. But unless Ramad tries to draw him in again, Kai won't participate at all.
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Date: 2025-06-17 08:54 pm (UTC)It's all far more than he could have asked for, but he still feels a tiny spot of hurt that Kai seems to not want to participate even so. He knows that's... incredibly foolish of him to feel, but he feels it anyway, examines it that night when they've settled down to rest, turning it over in his head. In the end, though, he's not entirely sure what sits more ill with him-- Kai's lack of participation with him, or the lack of participation with everyone else. Was he like that before? Ramad is ashamed to realize he has no idea.
He does behave himself, though, whatever the others might feel about him. He won't go out of his way to "prove" himself in the coming days, he knows that's a foolish concept. But he does try to make himself useful all the same.
(And if Kai avoiding him and the others being uncomfortable about him means he ends up "babysitting" more often than not, well, he does have a soft spot where Sanja is concerned, it seems, which he feels no need to attempt to explain to anybody. That he might be the one actually being "babysat" here only makes him grin a bit more.)